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New to Forum, With an ADHD Son - Any Advice?

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Thread : New to Forum, With an ADHD Son - Any Advice?
25 Jun 2008 @ 9:57 AM
kibarra	Join Date: Wed 25th Jun 2008 Threads: 1 Posts: 0
New to Forum, With an ADHD Son - Any Advice? I came online in search of a little support. My son is 7, and was diagnosed with ADHD about 1.5 years ago. I found, in the middle of all this that I, too, am ADD. My son tried the Daytrana patch at first, which I saw almost no results with...then he tried Adderall XR, which seemed to have somewhat of an effect, but seem to build up a resistance very quickly, so our Doctor increased the dosage...still not much help. I don't take medication for my ADHD because of the cost, and feel it is more important for my son to have this help. We finally tried Vyvanse. It works great for him. My son is like two different children compared to when he is on or off medication. It was a very hard choice to ever even start him on meds, he is so young, and I worried about the side effects. I don't even share this with my friends because of the comments they have made and this situation is heart wrenching enough as a parent w/o all the extra judgment. People without ADHD children simply, for the most part, do NOT understand. Before Vyvanse, I avoided social situations for fear of total embarrassment from what my son might do or how he may act. When not on medication, he will act w/o thinking. He has told me "NO" when I've given him a direct order...tells me to shut up...constantly picks on his little sister, laughs when I reprimand him, etc. etc. I have three children, and the other two children NEVER do things like this. His kindergarten teacher (who is new to teaching) almost started to cry (feeling sorry for him) as she explained his behavior at school. She said during carpet time when they were supposed to sit still, he just could NOT...she said she would watch him sit on his hands and shiver trying to control himself and just couldn't. We have been very lucky with very understanding and caring teachers in Kindergarten and then in 1st grade. Anyway, I guess I am in search of understanding. My son is small for his age and the two things I hate about Vyvanse are that he has so much trouble sleeping, and has no appetite...both of which are very important because children of his age need good rest and to eat well so they can grow correctly. This worries me to death...he is already small for his age, and then he never wants to eat. I thought I would try without medicine for the summer so he could maybe gain some weight and get a break from the daily grind of pill taking. No such luck. On days we go without it, it is HELL for everyone in the house...it makes me sick, and I feel like a failure as a mother that I can't even parent my child unless he is on meds. Anyway, sorry for the long message, again, I am new to this and just looking for any ideas you may have....especially about getting him to eat and sleep better. Prayers and blessings go out to all of you in this situation...I know how you feel :-) Quote

Thread : New to Forum, With an ADHD Son - Any Advice?

25 Jun 2008 @ 9:57 AM

kibarra

Join Date: Wed 25th Jun 2008
Threads: 1 Posts: 0

New to Forum, With an ADHD Son - Any Advice?

I came online in search of a little support. My son is 7, and was diagnosed with ADHD about 1.5 years ago. I found, in the middle of all this that I, too, am ADD. My son tried the Daytrana patch at first, which I saw almost no results with...then he tried Adderall XR, which seemed to have somewhat of an effect, but seem to build up a resistance very quickly, so our Doctor increased the dosage...still not much help. I don't take medication for my ADHD because of the cost, and feel it is more important for my son to have this help. We finally tried Vyvanse. It works great for him. My son is like two different children compared to when he is on or off medication. It was a very hard choice to ever even start him on meds, he is so young, and I worried about the side effects. I don't even share this with my friends because of the comments they have made and this situation is heart wrenching enough as a parent w/o all the extra judgment. People without ADHD children simply, for the most part, do NOT understand. Before Vyvanse, I avoided social situations for fear of total embarrassment from what my son might do or how he may act. When not on medication, he will act w/o thinking. He has told me "NO" when I've given him a direct order...tells me to shut up...constantly picks on his little sister, laughs when I reprimand him, etc. etc. I have three children, and the other two children NEVER do things like this. His kindergarten teacher (who is new to teaching) almost started to cry (feeling sorry for him) as she explained his behavior at school. She said during carpet time when they were supposed to sit still, he just could NOT...she said she would watch him sit on his hands and shiver trying to control himself and just couldn't. We have been very lucky with very understanding and caring teachers in Kindergarten and then in 1st grade. Anyway, I guess I am in search of understanding. My son is small for his age and the two things I hate about Vyvanse are that he has so much trouble sleeping, and has no appetite...both of which are very important because children of his age need good rest and to eat well so they can grow correctly. This worries me to death...he is already small for his age, and then he never wants to eat. I thought I would try without medicine for the summer so he could maybe gain some weight and get a break from the daily grind of pill taking. No such luck. On days we go without it, it is HELL for everyone in the house...it makes me sick, and I feel like a failure as a mother that I can't even parent my child unless he is on meds. Anyway, sorry for the long message, again, I am new to this and just looking for any ideas you may have....especially about getting him to eat and sleep better. Prayers and blessings go out to all of you in this situation...I know how you feel :-)

Quote

25 Jun 2008 @ 12:58 PM Reply # 1
Anni	Join Date: Thu 25th Oct 2007 Threads: 2 Posts: 179
Welcome Hi Kibarra: I'm glad you found the ADDitude forums and I hope we can help with ideas re: your son's ADHD treatment. Loss of appetite and slow growth are very common side effects for children taking meds like Vyvanse. I found some great ADDitude articles about combating these problems and about the pros and cons of taking a 'drug holiday' during the summer. Finally, have you considered trying some alternative treatments in addition to or instead of the meds? Fish oil? Behavior therapy? Special diet? We just released this free, special report about non-medical treatments for ADHD that you might find really helpful: http://www.additudemag.com/RCLP/sub/2729.html When ADHD Meds Suppress Appetite: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/1813.html ADHD Medications: Say No to Side Effects: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/957.html ADHD Medications 101: Stimulant Strategies: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/718.html All about taking a 'holiday' from ADD medications: http://www.additudemag.com/search/keyword/Holidays%20from%20ADHD%20Drugs.html Treating ADHD with Behavior Therapy: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/651.html ADHD Nutrition: Balanced Meals, Better Behavior: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/3295.html Fish Oil to the Rescue for ADHD Symptoms: Explaining an Alternative Treatment: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/1684.html I hope this helps! Quote

25 Jun 2008 @ 12:58 PM Reply # 1

Anni

Join Date: Thu 25th Oct 2007
Threads: 2 Posts: 179

Welcome

Hi Kibarra:

I'm glad you found the ADDitude forums and I hope we can help with ideas re: your son's ADHD treatment. Loss of appetite and slow growth are very common side effects for children taking meds like Vyvanse. I found some great ADDitude articles about combating these problems and about the pros and cons of taking a 'drug holiday' during the summer. Finally, have you considered trying some alternative treatments in addition to or instead of the meds? Fish oil? Behavior therapy? Special diet? We just released this free, special report about non-medical treatments for ADHD that you might find really helpful: http://www.additudemag.com/RCLP/sub/2729.html

When ADHD Meds Suppress Appetite: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/1813.html

ADHD Medications: Say No to Side Effects: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/957.html

ADHD Medications 101: Stimulant Strategies: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/718.html

All about taking a 'holiday' from ADD medications: http://www.additudemag.com/search/keyword/Holidays%20from%20ADHD%20Drugs.html

Treating ADHD with Behavior Therapy: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/651.html

ADHD Nutrition: Balanced Meals, Better Behavior: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/3295.html

Fish Oil to the Rescue for ADHD Symptoms: Explaining an Alternative Treatment: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/1684.html

I hope this helps!

Quote

25 Jun 2008 @ 1:10 PM Reply # 2
momofagreatkid	Join Date: Sat 21st Jun 2008 Threads: 1 Posts: 2
hi there i am so sorry that you are having these problems but trust me we all know how you feel. my son is 14 and was diagnosed at 5. he has been on every med out there and someday you may feel the same way because like you have already experienced some work and some dont. the thing about our boys is that when they were diagnosed they were and yours is little yet so he will be growing and as he grows and his body changes some meds wont be as effective and you will have to change them again. now that my son is 14 and somewhat stable with his growth we have him on ritalin 20 mg and seroquel 50mg. i should let you know that as my son has gotten older his problems have progressed he has adhd, tourettes, odd, aspergers, and he is bipolar and has learning disabilities and many, many social issues. so, i totally understood you when you said that you never went any where because you didnt know how your son would act. i still watch where and at what time i take my son places. i dont know what to tell you about how to handle family and friends and their feelings on meds, but, this is what i thought when it happened to me and what i still think and tell people. first of all my family members were the ones that had the most to say and basically i told them that it was not what i thought or what they thought it was what was best for erik to be able to have some kind of normal life and go to school. i told my family if erik was diabetic would i keep him from getting insulin? no, if he had asthma would i not give him an inhaler? no, so why would i not give him meds to help his brain and body slow down a little bit? adhd and all these other conditions are medical conditions and i just think that people who 1. do not have adhd family members and 2. do not know enough about it do not understand that. since my son was diagnosed with this i have been apart of chadd, i belong to several online support groups, i look online all the time for new information i keep myself very informed on the topic and now we are moving to texas from wisconsin so my son can attend a special school, this has impressed my family that i am not just going to give my son any old pills to " settle" him down and thats it. i dont care what they think really but i am just saying that the more informed you are the more accepting your family may be because they will realize that you have done your research and you know what your talking about. plus, what i did one time was i had my mom take my son for a weekend with no pills and i will tell you what she called sunday morning REALLY EARLY and she said " you better get over here with those pills NOW!!" so i took them and i said " gee, mom i thought erik was just being a boy (quoting her)?" and she said " well, i have never seen a boy like this" . ever since then she understands that he needs his meds. as for your son not eating and being small. yeah, these meds are famous for that. erik was a runt all the way until , well, really just last year. he started middle school three years ago looking like he should have been in maybe 4th grade. then we put him on seroqoul and i think it was a combination of him going through puberty and the seroqoul (which is known for making kids eat)but erik went from 4 feet tall and maybe 95 pounds to now he is 5' 7 and weighs 165 pounds, he is huge and he loves it, i can not keep enough food in this house for him he eats all day long and asks whats for dinner as he is eating lunch. so believe me your son will not be small forever and honestly when erik and i talk about when he was "small" he says he doesnt even remember it. i think he might be blocking it out because he had a horriable time with it and the kids picking on him but now that he is so big and it happened so fast no one messes with him now. in fact when someone is on seroqoul you have to be really careful because they can gain weight really fast and then you have to lower their dose so they dont have other health problems. anyway, i hope some of this helps and i hope you know that we are here for you and your son. always remember that tommerow will be a better day and as you and your son get more comfortable with his diagnosis and his meds you will feel better and so will he. let me just tell you one last thing: you are not a bad mom, even on your sons worst day, you did what was right for your son you got him help you got him meds hopefully you got him into counseling and you came here looking for help and support you are doing everything you can to put your sons needs first and that is being a GREAT mom. dont let anyone tell you different because as long as you put your sons needs above all else then your doing whats right. good luck and thanks for listening to anns' soapbox for june 25th 2008!!. Quote

25 Jun 2008 @ 1:10 PM Reply # 2

momofagreatkid

Join Date: Sat 21st Jun 2008
Threads: 1 Posts: 2

hi there

i am so sorry that you are having these problems but trust me we all know how you feel. my son is 14 and was diagnosed at 5. he has been on every med out there and someday you may feel the same way because like you have already experienced some work and some dont. the thing about our boys is that when they were diagnosed they were and yours is little yet so he will be growing and as he grows and his body changes some meds wont be as effective and you will have to change them again. now that my son is 14 and somewhat stable with his growth we have him on ritalin 20 mg and seroquel 50mg. i should let you know that as my son has gotten older his problems have progressed he has adhd, tourettes, odd, aspergers, and he is bipolar and has learning disabilities and many, many social issues. so, i totally understood you when you said that you never went any where because you didnt know how your son would act. i still watch where and at what time i take my son places. i dont know what to tell you about how to handle family and friends and their feelings on meds, but, this is what i thought when it happened to me and what i still think and tell people. first of all my family members were the ones that had the most to say and basically i told them that it was not what i thought or what they thought it was what was best for erik to be able to have some kind of normal life and go to school. i told my family if erik was diabetic would i keep him from getting insulin? no, if he had asthma would i not give him an inhaler? no, so why would i not give him meds to help his brain and body slow down a little bit? adhd and all these other conditions are medical conditions and i just think that people who 1. do not have adhd family members and 2. do not know enough about it do not understand that. since my son was diagnosed with this i have been apart of chadd, i belong to several online support groups, i look online all the time for new information i keep myself very informed on the topic and now we are moving to texas from wisconsin so my son can attend a special school, this has impressed my family that i am not just going to give my son any old pills to " settle" him down and thats it. i dont care what they think really but i am just saying that the more informed you are the more accepting your family may be because they will realize that you have done your research and you know what your talking about. plus, what i did one time was i had my mom take my son for a weekend with no pills and i will tell you what she called sunday morning REALLY EARLY and she said " you better get over here with those pills NOW!!" so i took them and i said " gee, mom i thought erik was just being a boy (quoting her)?" and she said " well, i have never seen a boy like this" . ever since then she understands that he needs his meds.

as for your son not eating and being small. yeah, these meds are famous for that. erik was a runt all the way until , well, really just last year. he started middle school three years ago looking like he should have been in maybe 4th grade. then we put him on seroqoul and i think it was a combination of him going through puberty and the seroqoul (which is known for making kids eat)but erik went from 4 feet tall and maybe 95 pounds to now he is 5' 7 and weighs 165 pounds, he is huge and he loves it, i can not keep enough food in this house for him he eats all day long and asks whats for dinner as he is eating lunch. so believe me your son will not be small forever and honestly when erik and i talk about when he was "small" he says he doesnt even remember it. i think he might be blocking it out because he had a horriable time with it and the kids picking on him but now that he is so big and it happened so fast no one messes with him now. in fact when someone is on seroqoul you have to be really careful because they can gain weight really fast and then you have to lower their dose so they dont have other health problems. anyway, i hope some of this helps and i hope you know that we are here for you and your son. always remember that tommerow will be a better day and as you and your son get more comfortable with his diagnosis and his meds you will feel better and so will he. let me just tell you one last thing: you are not a bad mom, even on your sons worst day, you did what was right for your son you got him help you got him meds hopefully you got him into counseling and you came here looking for help and support you are doing everything you can to put your sons needs first and that is being a GREAT mom. dont let anyone tell you different because as long as you put your sons needs above all else then your doing whats right.

good luck and thanks for listening to anns' soapbox for june 25th 2008!!.

Quote

27 Jun 2008 @ 11:01 AM Reply # 3
jvtjr	Join Date: Mon 28th Jan 2008 Threads: 0 Posts: 2
Meds Same situation with my Son. He's on Focalin XR, which has worked for him. Some recommendations ... read up on the Meds ... find out, how they cycle. Most take 30-45 minutes to get in their system, then Peak; and with XR, the 2nd release kicks in & cycles as well...like a roller coaster ... The key, is to minimize the meds ... and provide coverage over the entire Day ... such as split a 20 MG XR, into two doses of 10MG ... splitting doses, can minimize the peaks & valleys; and provide a more level period of coverage, with the overlap Mid-day, when more medication is needed (School) As far as eating ... try loading up on Protein in the AM, prior to meds ... then provide snacks; protein bars, etc for mid-day (anything consumed is better than nothing) ... and then let him "graze" in the evening (as the med subsides)... I also highly recommend TaeKwonDo ... it's been excellent for my Son, structure, discipline, confidence ... and it sure helps with the "bullies" ... not necessary to use it, just show that you Know It ... I feel your Pain ... Hang in there ... I'm ADD, and I can tell you that there are many, many positive aspects ... you apparently have two Apples and one Orange ... both are just as sweet ... Read as much as you can about ADD (the Chaotic Mind, etc)... you'll learn to appreciate the good aspects, as well as accept the shortcomings ... most can be minimized via behavior modification, structure, routines, etc....the rest; I just allow someone else to "cover" where I'm weak ... Also, get involved with some of the ADD Groups, such as CHADD ... it's good to talk with others that have already been down the path that you're on ... Take care ... Quote

27 Jun 2008 @ 11:01 AM Reply # 3

jvtjr

Join Date: Mon 28th Jan 2008
Threads: 0 Posts: 2

Meds

Same situation with my Son. He's on Focalin XR, which has worked for him.

Some recommendations ... read up on the Meds ... find out, how they cycle. Most take 30-45 minutes to get in their system, then Peak; and with XR, the 2nd release kicks in & cycles as well...like a roller coaster ...

The key, is to minimize the meds ... and provide coverage over the entire Day ... such as split a 20 MG XR, into two doses of 10MG ... splitting doses, can minimize the peaks & valleys; and provide a more level period of coverage, with the overlap Mid-day, when more medication is needed (School)

As far as eating ... try loading up on Protein in the AM, prior to meds ... then provide snacks; protein bars, etc for mid-day (anything consumed is better than nothing) ... and then let him "graze" in the evening (as the med subsides)...

I also highly recommend TaeKwonDo ... it's been excellent for my Son, structure, discipline, confidence ... and it sure helps with the "bullies" ... not necessary to use it, just show that you Know It ...

I feel your Pain ... Hang in there ... I'm ADD, and I can tell you that there are many, many positive aspects ... you apparently have two Apples and one Orange ... both are just as sweet ...

Read as much as you can about ADD (the Chaotic Mind, etc)... you'll learn to appreciate the good aspects, as well as accept the shortcomings ... most can be minimized via behavior modification, structure, routines, etc....the rest; I just allow someone else to "cover" where I'm weak ...

Also, get involved with some of the ADD Groups, such as CHADD ... it's good to talk with others that have already been down the path that you're on ...

Take care ...

Quote

1 Jul 2008 @ 7:13 PM Reply # 4
gp	Join Date: Tue 1st Jul 2008 Threads: 1 Posts: 1
advice about weight loss Okay this is my first time here but felt I needed to talk with you. My grandson came to live with me at age 3. Grades K 1 and 2 were a nightmare.I kept saying no to meds tried diets behavior modifacations any advice I could find. grade 3 I said okay to ritalin because it has years of records it helped but side affects made me agree to other meds there are over$900.00 worth still left over of stuff that didn't work adderall being the most horrible due to side affects. At age 10 he is back on ritalin but the nerologist added tenex which is a blood pressure pill that controls the tics (they were BAD) but it increased his appetite He is now normal weight. Also straight a's for two years. Since I have no insurance I'm kicking myself for trying straterra concerta adderall ect ect at $250.to $400.00 per month we now do generic ritalin for less than $52.00 a month plus 8.00 tenex. He was able to gain back the 15lbs he lost and do wonderful in school. He takes AG classes but is still weak with organization of his materials but we are working on that.Timers really help. A really good breakfast before meds.Keep peanutbutter on hand most kids will eat a pb and j even when they say they aren't hungry. Keep trying. There is a light at the end of the tunnel which I did not believe 3yrs ago. Good luck and I hope this helps Quote

1 Jul 2008 @ 7:13 PM Reply # 4

Join Date: Tue 1st Jul 2008
Threads: 1 Posts: 1

advice about weight loss

Okay this is my first time here but felt I needed to talk with you. My grandson came to live with me at age 3. Grades K 1 and 2 were a nightmare.I kept saying no to meds tried diets behavior modifacations any advice I could find. grade 3 I said okay to ritalin because it has years of records it helped but side affects made me agree to other meds there are over$900.00 worth still left over of stuff that didn't work adderall being the most horrible due to side affects. At age 10 he is back on ritalin but the nerologist added tenex which is a blood pressure pill that controls the tics (they were BAD) but it increased his appetite He is now normal weight. Also straight a's for two years. Since I have no insurance I'm kicking myself for trying straterra concerta adderall ect ect at $250.to $400.00 per month we now do generic ritalin for less than $52.00 a month plus 8.00 tenex. He was able to gain back the 15lbs he lost and do wonderful in school. He takes AG classes but is still weak with organization of his materials but we are working on that.Timers really help. A really good breakfast before meds.Keep peanutbutter on hand most kids will eat a pb and j even when they say they aren't hungry. Keep trying. There is a light at the end of the tunnel which I did not believe 3yrs ago. Good luck and I hope this helps

Quote

10 Jul 2008 @ 1:55 AM Reply # 5
kibarra	Join Date: Wed 25th Jun 2008 Threads: 1 Posts: 0
Thanks... Thanks so much to all of you that took the time to reply...I got some helpful info from each post. I really really appreciate your advice! I haven't had time to read all the links in the first post, but am trying to just take it all in...gives me a lot to consider/think about. Blessings to you all! Quote

10 Jul 2008 @ 1:55 AM Reply # 5

kibarra

Join Date: Wed 25th Jun 2008
Threads: 1 Posts: 0

Thanks...

Thanks so much to all of you that took the time to reply...I got some helpful info from each post. I really really appreciate your advice! I haven't had time to read all the links in the first post, but am trying to just take it all in...gives me a lot to consider/think about. Blessings to you all!

Quote

15 Jul 2008 @ 7:03 PM Reply # 6
Lyll	Join Date: Tue 15th Jul 2008 Threads: Posts:
Hi Kibarra Boy do I know where you are coming from. That saying....I have been there and done that.....is me. My son just turned 16 and was diagnosed when he was 7. It has been a long, long, long tough road but we have managed to turn it around. My son was on Adderal, Ritalin, and many more combinations of medications until we found the right dosage. We now take Strattera (it does not affect sleeping or eating) and Tenex. For the last 3 years this combination has worked. We also go to a great school that is specifically for children with ADD, ADHD, and other learning disabilities. It is called Center Academy and it is wonderful. The students get 1 on 1 attention from their teachers and a plan is set specifically for you child. My husband said when our son started the school that it will either be the best thing we did for him or be a bust. The 1st day my son came out smiling and the 1st week he was so happy that finally he was like "all the other kids" and "he could FINALLY be himself." I finally cried tears of happiness!!! He made a goal for himself and for the 1st time ever he has been on the honor roll for the whole year. So don't ever think there isn't hope. I felt like that many times and felt like I was the worse mother in the world too. I just think you have to find what is right for you and your son. Try different medications , different schools, support groups, and don't ever give up hope. Just remember that there are more kids like our children out there than we think because people are afraid to talk about it. You can do it! Oh by the way.....my son was always the runt and now that we have hit puberty he is 5' 7" and still growing. He wore a childs size 10 shoe for 4 years and wore a size 8 clothing for 2 years. I have had to replace his school uniform 3 sizes this year. We have grown up not out. One thing our psychiatrist said is to always feed him what he wants to eat. One year we went to Waffle House so much that at Christmas the waitresses gave him a present. So he will grow and don't pay attention to those stupid charts the doctors have! I have learned they will eat when they get hungry! :> Quote Last edited by Lyll : 15 Jul 2008 @ 7:09 PM. Reason: needed to add a little more inspirations

15 Jul 2008 @ 7:03 PM Reply # 6

Lyll

Join Date: Tue 15th Jul 2008
Threads: Posts:

Hi Kibarra

Boy do I know where you are coming from. That saying....I have been there and done that.....is me. My son just turned 16 and was diagnosed when he was 7. It has been a long, long, long tough road but we have managed to turn it around. My son was on Adderal, Ritalin, and many more combinations of medications until we found the right dosage. We now take Strattera (it does not affect sleeping or eating) and Tenex. For the last 3 years this combination has worked. We also go to a great school that is specifically for children with ADD, ADHD, and other learning disabilities. It is called Center Academy and it is wonderful. The students get 1 on 1 attention from their teachers and a plan is set specifically for you child. My husband said when our son started the school that it will either be the best thing we did for him or be a bust. The 1st day my son came out smiling and the 1st week he was so happy that finally he was like "all the other kids" and "he could FINALLY be himself." I finally cried tears of happiness!!! He made a goal for himself and for the 1st time ever he has been on the honor roll for the whole year. So don't ever think there isn't hope. I felt like that many times and felt like I was the worse mother in the world too. I just think you have to find what is right for you and your son. Try different medications , different schools, support groups, and don't ever give up hope. Just remember that there are more kids like our children out there than we think because people are afraid to talk about it. You can do it!

Oh by the way.....my son was always the runt and now that we have hit puberty he is 5' 7" and still growing. He wore a childs size 10 shoe for 4 years and wore a size 8 clothing for 2 years. I have had to replace his school uniform 3 sizes this year. We have grown up not out. One thing our psychiatrist said is to always feed him what he wants to eat. One year we went to Waffle House so much that at Christmas the waitresses gave him a present. So he will grow and don't pay attention to those stupid charts the doctors have! I have learned they will eat when they get hungry!

Quote

Last edited by Lyll : 15 Jul 2008 @ 7:09 PM. Reason: needed to add a little more inspirations

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