My hunch is that she probably is both. Her lower IQ score the second time around may have been due to ADHD symptoms. Your intelligence level is not supposed to change but your IQ score can change. If you are not feeling well one day, having trouble focusing, distracted, etc. your score may come out lower. They have done studies showing that those with untreated ADHD have lower IQ scores by anywhere from 5 to 15 points. Their intelligence is the same but the score does not reflect this.

I am 47 years old and was only diagnosed with ADHD in April. My IQ is 147 and I graduated 10th in my high school. I went on to get a college degree in Accounting. There were times that I "felt" stupid, yet I knew I wasn't. I didn't know why that was. My sister, who is a pharmacist, and was valedictorian of her class, felt the same way too, like she was stupid. We both realized that one of the reasons our ADHD symptoms were not apparent to us or to others was due to our intelligence and how we compensated for our symptoms. We were able to do well but not as well as we would have liked. We both felt that we were incapable of going further with our education. We both had trouble with reading comprehension, especially in college when the texts were more difficult.

Now that I am on medication, I realize just how much of a difference it makes. I finally feel smarter and capable of understanding more complex subjects. I would love to become a neuropsychiatrist but at this point in my life, my circumstances and responsibilities (without even taking into account the time and money involved) are not conducive to attending school full time for the 8 years it would require.

My reading comprehension, working memory, organizational skills and ability to prioritize have improved tremendously. I am able to express myself better, and my thoughts are more cohesive and organized. I used to dread writing papers in school (I'd rather have my teeth drilled) but it isn't as daunting of a task now.

It's not as easy to recognize ADHD in girls and women who are inattentive and in very intelligent people. The inattentive symptoms can be quite different than those with hyperactivity. Also inattentive girls and women have more internal symptoms (including possible anxiety and depression). They are usually not behavior problems. I was able to function okay relative to many people, but not as well as my IQ would indicate. Now with the medication, I have faster mental processing and I feel more confident. I had anxiety as well and that also helped to mask my ADHD symptoms because I was so concerned about doing well in school. When my anxiety was treated a few years back, my attidtude changed regarding constant worrying. Then I began to show a little more of the ADHD symptoms.

By the way, we have a neighbor who has an IQ that is over 180 and he has ADHD that is very obvious. your first impression of him is that he isn't very intelligent. The confusion, disorganization, and lack of social skills give off that impression.

If your daughter is having problems with doing homework, applying herself, hates school, appears to be lazy, messy, etc--those are all classic signs of ADHD. Everything you mentioned points to ADHD. My son and daughter both have inattentive ADHD, as do I and when my son went on medication I saw immediate changes. Once on medication when I asked him to do something he did it immediately. In the past I had to remind him a dozen times and even then, he would still forget to do it. I thought he was lazy and misbehaving. Until I saw the change in him.

If your daughter has already been diagnosed with ADHD by a professional and two teachers have noticed signs, then my guess is that she is both intellegent/gifted and ADHD. Once you find the right medication and the right dosage, I think you will see a big improvement in your daughter.

Elaine

Quote

Hi Tracy:

Welcome to the ADDitude forums. Elaine posted a great reply above, and I agree with much of what she noted. I'm just adding a few ADDitude articles that delve a little deeper into diagnosing girls, finding the right medication, and some other non-medical treatment alternatives -- good reading that you might find helpful as you navigate this maze with your daughter:

Girls and ADHD: Late Diagnosis, Little Treatment: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/1626.html

Diagnosing ADD ADHD Girls: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/1691.html

Little Miss Diagnosis: Girls with ADHD: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd-web/article/592.html

An Accurate ADHD Diagnosis for Children: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/1591.html

Getting an ADHD Diagnosis: 3 Common Mistakes: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/1876.html

Top 10 Questions about ADHD Medications... Answered!: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/1592.html

Treating ADHD with Behavior Therapy: An Alternative ADHD Treatment: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/651.html

Can Diet Ease ADHD Symptoms? Nutrition As an Alternative Treatment: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/859.html

More about alternative treatments: http://www.additudemag.com/topic/adhd-treatment/alternative-adhd-therapies.html

I hope this helps!

Quote

It maybe alittle of both. If gifted any work given that is reviewed can cause her to protest and refuse to do it. When I was in grammar school I tested at the 4th grade at a junior year college level with comprehension. However when they tried to put me in the advance class, I totally protested and refused to do anything because I like the way the slower class teacher taught. They were more animated and worked harder to engage us. It really suprized them to find on a good day my IQ was 169 and on a bad it was 130's. It all depended on my mood. I have taken many exams and I would usually do very well in them ; however I struggle with advance math. It will get worse as she gets older if they do not find a way to engage her. If she isn't engaged she will not do her work. This is for both the gifted and ADD child. There is a book about raising gifted child and it maybe to advantage to read it. I would take her to unbiased psychologist and have her examined that way they have no idea about her or her previous testing. If she is an attentive type she may need a stimulant like Ritalin. Also make sure she get pleanty of exercise it seems to help.

Quote

My son is 16 been on adderral stratter seem make him more agressive and also the aderral. I talk to his doctor he off the stimulant medication. he currently on attend and amoryn he takes both all natural his doctor said fine I told his teachers and the nurse he will no longer will be taken stimulant anymore. and its been doing a wonderful. no outbust just great the website www.vaxa.com and other is www.amoryn.com you can use deprex or amoryn.

Quote

As with the others, I wholeheartedly agree that your daughter is likely both gifted and ADHD. I tested well within the normal range on group IQ tests, but in the top 2% on individual. I was diagnosed with ADD when I was 16, and the hyperactivity was recognized with I was 23. No medication, though, until after college (unfortunate). Nobody thought, in high school, that a girl getting mostly A-'s was underperforming! I also displayed a lack of initiative (as I remember it). I was not one of those driven young geniuses you see on tv shows.

I'm not sure what to recommend to help your daughter. If she can learn to love learining new things just out of curiosity, she'll be set for life. It would be best if she didn't feel like she was being directed or encouraged or pushed into things, or if she feels mommy thinks she needs to be "fixed "to be acceptable. Tricky, I know. Maybe displaying intellectual curiosity yourself a love of learning will eventually be seen as normal.

Quote

I also think that she is both ADD and Gifted. I remember going to Kindergarten...I was SO excited to learn and try new things. Instead, the teacher had the idea that sucessful Kindergarten outcome was to have me conform to the standard of everyone around me. I was BORED TO DEATH!!!!!!! I had taught myself to read and write years earlier, yet the teacher insisted that I sit there and "re-learn" to read and write HER way; because I had taught myself independently, she felt that my own curiosity and determination were a threat to her performance as a teacher, I guess. My mother told me a few years ago that the teacher insisted that I sit there with the other kids and practice writing "a" over and over and over...etc. and that I was so bored and frustrated that I'd just do something like reach over and pinch another kid, just to see an interesting reaction. Of course I got quickly labeled as a "bad kid," and that was a real shame...my self-esteem and self-confidence plummeted quickly, and I became rejected by peers as a "bad" kid. (Yet even though I refused to write "a" over and over and over...at age 33, my own "a" writing is still just fine, lol. ;) )

All the things you said about your daughter could just as well have been written about me...I can relate a whole lot.

I think in Kindergarten or 1st grade they tested me for intelligence, giftedness, ADHD, etc. I was never told what my IQ was, as they thought that knowing could encourage me to feel too proud or whatever, but they did tell me that I'm in the top 1% of the population for intelligence and I went straight into the school's "Gifted" program. Still, though, school remained a problem for me for years. I was bored, uninterested, and never tried because I felt it was a waste of time. I can completely relate to your daughter's sad/"what's the point?" attitude...it's frustrating to be stuck in that situation and feel powerless to change anything effectively.

No one recognized my somewhat-atypical ADHD attributes, so I was never diagnosed or treated for ADHD, but I certainly had it at that young age. I was probably 30 or 31 before it was recognized, and I didn't begin treatment for it until last year, at age 32.

I've never really lived up to my potential of what I know I could do, if I only knew of how to organize, prioritize, and manage my own mind, and get myself STARTED to do whatever I needed to do. It's frustrating to me. I'm sure I certainly do not come across as "gifted" or "intelligent," and sometimes I feel so frustrated with myself even though I know I'm intelligent. I never felt like a competent hosptal RN, because I would be on my way to get a patient her pain medicine and then get a phone call from a doctor...and forget all about the pain medicine for that unfortunate patient. Or, I could not effectively prioritize and complete all the tasks I needed to do...a new patient to admit, another pt needed help to get to the bathroom, someone else needed a blood sugar test before dinner, a patient needed a blood transfusion, etc, all at the same time....I didn't know WHERE TO BEGIN, and had trouble managing it all simultaneously, with the ADD symptoms that I didn't even know about... That's just MY story, but you can see the frustration I've felt and can probably imagine the way other staff thought I was just pretty stupid or didn't even care about the patient in pain!

At this point I am NOW learning all I can about managing the ADD, and also about managing my "giftedness" in order to utilize the parts of me that could benefit myself and others. There's an AWESOME website, called SENG: Supporting the Emotional Needs of the Gifted...I'd highly recommend it to you. Here's a link: http://www.sengifted.org/ Please check it out; I'm sure you will find a great deal of help there!!!!!!!

It's very uplifting to see a parent so actively involved in trying to understand and help guide a child as you are. It will pay off, believe me! My mom has ALWAYS been my biggest support throughout my life...and words cannot even begin to describe the gratitude I feel for her for always believing in me and fighting for me throughout those awful school years. Now we know more than all the "experts" knew then, so I'd encourage you to keep fighting for her, and validating her experience...you will help her maximize her learning/curiosity potential and there are now better resources to help guide you. Please let us know how things go for her (and you).

Quote

Sign me up for the "both" bandwagon! I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until 24 where I was given ritalin to help in college. I'm now 31 and looking to get back into treatment because of changes at work (promotion) and home (new baby!). Things are going well and I want to keep it that way!

Growing up, I lived up to my parents high expectations, did a variety of activities (music lessons, private tutoring, and later theatre, martial arts, jazz, ballroom), and was even enrolled in gifted education classes. Their support and interest in me definitely help me succeed (4.2 high school GPA with the help of the advance placement classes where a 4 = 5 points).

So love, support, and structure can all help, even without medication (since I was undiagnosed back then). I do wish I'd had found out sooner, but it's hard for people to imagine that "gifted" kids could have a mental disability. It's hard enough now, as an adult, for some people to accept the diagnosis (I supposedly just have "issues")!

Also - I wasn't told the results of my IQ test, either! They just stuck me in the gifted program in fifth grade.

Quote

Hello. My daughter is 10 years old and was diagnosed ADHD at 7. Within the last year, she has been diagnosed with Anxiety, which is not a surprise as I am ADHD with Anxiety. I am becoming concerned re the medication (number and dosage) and believe that we will likely change from a stimulant (concerta). I noticed that you mentioned treatments from vaxa.com. Would appreciate your (and anyone else's) feedback. I am not familar with the suppliments or website and am always very cautious about non-FDA regulated supplements. Do you know of any testing/ studies that are available? My daughter also suffers from mild asthma, so that is a concern, as well. Thanks.

Quote:

stacy28 said: My son is 16 been on adderral stratter seem make him more agressive and also the aderral. I talk to his doctor he off the stimulant medication. he currently on attend and amoryn he takes both all natural his doctor said fine I told his teachers and the nurse he will no longer will be taken stimulant anymore. and its been doing a wonderful. no outbust just great the website www.vaxa.com and other is www.amoryn.com you can use deprex or amoryn.

Quote

BOTH! I'm a mom of two, and a (about to be) former teacher, and a highly gifted person myself. Both our daughter are superior range testers, too. Here's my advice. 1. You may want to get another IQ score done, especially if they didn't give you the scores all broken down. One of my daughters' scores are wildly different across domains - almost 150 in reading etc., and closer to 110 in math related stuff. We were able to finally see why she continues to excel in math - she has such a high ability to comprehend the directions! You may see with your daughter's breakdown scores that she needs more support in one area over another. 2. IQ scores are not the be-all-end-all and will change. After a horrible 6th grade, by IQ dropped by almost 20 points, which it recovered the next year with challenging teachers and a better curriculum. So, while it's a window into the brain, it's hard to predict if the curtains are going to be open or the shade is going to be up. 3. Supplement! There are on-line gifted programs at many universities. Northwestern University runs the Center for Talent Development (not sure of exact name- it changed recently) and Duke has online courses. Often these courses allow kids to interact and meet other gifted kids in a safe forum, without having to move, go to camp for 6 weeks across the country, etc. Although those are options. 4. A Section 504 plan. Your daughter has a medical diagnosis of ADHD and decreased performance in school. While a highly gifted child is not going to qualify for "special ed" there are probably loads of classroom accommodations that the teachers could and should be making for her. A 504 plan makes sure that kids with medical issues (and ADHD is a medical issue) get the support they need. Get one and watch the school like a hawk to make sure it's followed. You may want to bring your psychologist to the meeting to make sure they understand what your daughter needs because it seems that ADHD in highly gifted people presents differently than ADHD with LD symptoms. 5. Other gifted folks. Just recently, I was at a seminar about career happiness and the leader said we should think about the people we want to be around - did we want to be around people with the same interests, or these people, or those people, or do you want everyone around you to have a PhD? It was wildly validating to realize that it was okay to choose "everyone has PhD!" I was always told to be well-rounded, which isn't bad, but sometimes "everyone else" gets me down. (I'm leaving teaching to get my PhD) Your daughter may be having just as much trouble with other classmates as she is with the teachers. Help her find other gifted kids to be friends with - they'll probably be quirky too and her differences will seem less of an issue. Introduce her to other highly gifted adults - they'll probably recognize themselves in her and be able to help with advice and support. Good luck! Let us know how it goes. @Amy - thanks for the SENG link. I'll be checking it out later today.

Quote

However, challenging and engaging teaching should be the first intervention!

http://askdreric-schoolpsychologist.blogspot.com/

Quote

I agree with one of the writer , here in NJ all the teens that are very intelligent go to McNair Academic and it proably considered the nerdy classes of all highschool but this where they all found acceptance and comfortable since they areall high IQ and very motivated children.. These children even when I asked my child feel it is difficult to socialize with an average child because they just don't get them . I think if a child is either ADD or gifted this child needs to be with children just like her and have very open relaxed self designed classes for a child. I believe in Bayonne they have one for children in middle school I home taught my daughter and frankly it worked because she learned to motivate herself andd learned what she found interesting was pursued with a vendages , High school is harder because it b8 classed with a rotating schedule and each day she has 8 classes at home if she wanted to MacBeth it was done and acted out as part of the fun. Learning needs to be fun , interesting and engaaging and definetly challenging I known when I wasn't challenged I was the biggest pain a 4'3'' person I could be just to get what I wanted. (ADDRN)

Quote

I just had this exact conversation with someone that was kicked out of high school for ADD-type symptoms a few days ago.

After some compare and contrast discussion between ADD and being gifted, we concluded that she was probably just gifted in a school that could not handle her advanced skills and learning style.

The happy part of the story... she is starting a doctoral program in an elite school of education this year.

http://askdreric-schoolpsychologist.blogspot.com/

Quote

A little except from the doctors opion of my ADHD and Gifted mind:

“This extreme discrepancy between Nathaniel's ability to perceive, analyze and criticize and in his own ability to produce written or drawn output may well be the leading to a high level of frustration on his part.” “Disinterest in attention may serve as avoidance mechanisms or means of coping with this type of frustration“

I was given the good news and the bad news that I was gifted and that I was ADHD. This was a tough pill to swallow. Literally!

I go into more detail about it at: http://www.adhdaction.com/adhd-gifted.html. But The biggest thing that I can think of to say is this:

Yes, the ADHD gifted mind give you an advantage and a disadvantage. They don’t cancel each other out.

They are two special needs that need addressing. They can cause a very frustrating and miserable life if you aren’t able to understand them. Just like other mental and mood disorders that can be present with ADHD. The ADHD gifted person needs even more caution and effort need to be taken to achieve success.

I think we all know that the good news is we can do it. We can turn our ADHD into strengths. I do it on a daily basis.

Nathaniel

Quote

I just finished Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers. Although not specifically about this topic, he does a compare and contrast on what happens to people who are gifted that have exposure to opportunity and those that do not. It is intriguing, and I consider it a "must-read".

Quote

My 15 year old daughter has been in the gifted and talented program at school since 2nd grade. She is now in college prep courses at high school. She was diagnosed in the later 5th grade school year with ADHD after alot of testing (we wanted to make sure we had the right diagnosis). She is so disorganized that she forgets to turn in her completed assignments as they are strewn about. She is not medicated and does not want to be and I don't want to do anything that she doesn't want to do. The school is not helping her at all even though she is on a 504 plan and the teachers don't remind her to go get her work and she forgets. She doesn't have many friends and takes everything so personally (the kids pick on her as she is 5 foot 10 and doesn't play the click games). Any ideas how I can help her get and stay organized? I tried a homework folder, writing down each assignment on one page of it, a planner...nothing is working. I checked her grades online and in 5 weeks of school, she had 9 missing assignments and no one notified myself or my daughter. Any ideas?

Quote:

SMM said: As with the others, I wholeheartedly agree that your daughter is likely both gifted and ADHD. I tested well within the normal range on group IQ tests, but in the top 2% on individual. I was diagnosed with ADD when I was 16, and the hyperactivity was recognized with I was 23. No medication, though, until after college (unfortunate). Nobody thought, in high school, that a girl getting mostly A-'s was underperforming! I also displayed a lack of initiative (as I remember it). I was not one of those driven young geniuses you see on tv shows.

I'm not sure what to recommend to help your daughter. If she can learn to love learining new things just out of curiosity, she'll be set for life. It would be best if she didn't feel like she was being directed or encouraged or pushed into things, or if she feels mommy thinks she needs to be "fixed "to be acceptable. Tricky, I know. Maybe displaying intellectual curiosity yourself a love of learning will eventually be seen as normal.

Quote

@D,

It sounds like your daughter needs extra help with organization and remembering assignments. You mentioned that she has a 504 Plan but it sounds like it's not being followed at school. It could be time to call a meeting to update the 504 Plan. This will let the school know you are aware it's not being followed and that you're not okay with it. It will also bring to everyone's attention that she is struggling and you want to work with them to help her.

I read a great book called "The Organized Student" recently. The author says again and again that you have to enlist your child/the student in the organizational process. You have to allow them to decide what will be of help to them and what sort of organizational system they will use. If you mandate the system and purchase the items on your own, it's a system that would work for you, but your student doesn't have any ownership and it may not follow her train of thought and habits at all, then it would be useless for her. The author outlines several different organizational plans to choose from in this book.

Hang in there!

Penny W., ADDitudemag.com & ADDConnect.com Community Moderator

ADHD Momma to Luke, age 7

creator of the Website {a mom's view of ADHD} @ http://adhdmomma.blogspot.com

Quote

Many others have given some wonderful answers. I just wanted to add one more voice to the chorus telling you that she could be both gifted and adhd. In an attempt to find out if our son was merely bored in school, we had IQ testing done. We also left with a diagnosis of adhd. They broke down the scores for us. His verbal score was 140, but on another portion of the test he was so distracted that he scored way, way below average. We laughed, because everything made sense in that moment! No wonder he is such an enigma, we never know moment to moment who we are dealing with, the brilliant boy, or the rodeo clown!

Just as an aside, I smiled when someone else posted this: "a new patient to admit, another pt needed help to get to the bathroom, someone else needed a blood sugar test before dinner, a patient needed a blood transfusion, etc, all at the same time....I didn't know WHERE TO BEGIN, and had trouble managing it all simultaneously". THAT is the VERY reason I quit nursing school! I was afraid I was going to kill someone with one of my infamous careless errors. Yikes! For what it is worth, be glad she is getting the diagnosis now. I wasn't diagnosed until 40 even though I asked to be diagnosed in my twenties.

Quote

Making the art in my head connect with the medium was always a problem for me. Since Vyvanse, my art has taken on a whole new depth. No more overthinking or missing details. ADHD is a gift when properly diagnosed.........But a curse when not.

Quote

When I was in first grade, they sent me to read with a fourth grade class, because they quickly figured out that my reading skills were too advanced for my class. I was also quickly put into the gifted class.

We moved into a different school system after fourth grade. By then, I tested as having a collegiate level vocabulary. In fifth grade, they expected me to participate in the fifth grade reading circle, which I guess bored me. After all, I was reading novels on my own, so I wasn't very interested in reading "See John run. Run John, run!," or whatever it was that they tortured us with. The endlessly repetitive math lessons weren't holding my interest either, and I frequently got in trouble for talking in class and passing notes.

For some reason, my fifth grade teacher was convinced I couldn't comprehend what I read. I could read aloud very quickly and fluently, but for some reason unfathomable to me she thought I was just mouthing the words with no comprehension. She wanted me placed into a special education class for children with severe learning disabilities. My mother threw a fit, and ultimately pulled me out of the public school system for a year.

During that year, the county school system had me tested thoroughly. My IQ test score was 165. When I returned to school, I was placed in the gifted program, and I did better. So part of my problem was simple boredom with classes that didn't challenge me. But that wasn't all of it. I still had virtually all of the behavioral symptoms of fairly pronounced inattentive ADD. I had speech therapy in both elementary school and high school because I wouldn't pay enough attention to pronouncing words (because I was already thinking about something else before I finished the sentence). I was diagnosed ADD at a young age, and eventually diagnosed again as an adult.

I got Bs on math classes in high school because I didn't do the assigned homework. I'd also sometimes get marked down on tests for not "showing my work". I sometimes got Bs in English classes because I wouldn't do things like required book reports. I got a D in one class when I was 15. I was also the captain of the school math team and academic bowl team, and I won or placed highly in a lot of regional and statewide academic competitions in things like math and essay writing. Our academic bowl team lost in the finals of the state championship (and I think we lost in part because we were tired, and I had difficulty remaining focused in the final round).

FWIW, I eventually had the highest SAT score in the history of my high school, and the highest score for the year I took it in a large metro county with 17 high schools. I scored close to 1600 on both the SAT and the GRE (a similar test for grad school entrance), including scoring 800 on the math or quantitative portions of both tests and over 700 on the verbal portions (both taken while not being treated for ADD). I had a 3.51 GPA in high school, but a 3.99 GPA in college (see note below). I have two degrees, and I'm currently in grad school at a top 20 university (which has been ranked in the top 5 in my specialty).

Despite all that, at times I still struggle in school. It is difficult for me to turn in assignments on time. I have difficulty studying (I'm perfectly willing to read academic text books and papers relevant to my areas of interest, but I don't necessarily read what is actually relevant for my class. While I do well on tests, I have significant test anxiety, and I am typically the last student to finish tests. As I type this, I actually have a pathophysiology final tomorrow, and I haven't started studying for it. I have also massively underperformed at times in other aspects of my life (while excelling in others).

ADD can certainly be combined with high intelligence. One can mask the other, so that people can underestimate your intelligence or your attention problems. But they can easily both be present, and even with a high intelligence, untreated ADD can cause a lot of problems.

[That's for my second time in college, with over 130 credit hours and two degrees. Part of the difference is being older and better at compensating for ADD. The first time I went to college, I had a very good GPA to start with (4.0 my first semester with a heavy class load), but I had a parent die of cancer when I was 19, and my grades took a big hit. I also decided I didn't want to be a physicist or an engineer, and I dropped out as a senior.]

Quote