I just wanted to add in a comment for parents who are having difficulty setting limits, especially those they think are harsh. As I'm sure everyone can tell from the posts here, each ADD/ADHD kid is different and responds differently to behavior interventions. My now 15yo son is ADHD, highly impusive, very argumentative and never really cared much for any consequence he was given. Consequently, we fought, argued, etc etc. As he's gotten older, I can explain things to him better and last year since he went through puberty, his hyperactivity, the running all over creation part of it, is almost gone completely to the point that he's not on meds anymore. However, at 13 we had a REALLY rocky year. First I had to hospitalize him for a week because he was severely depressed. Then he was arrested, & spent a month in the juvenile facility before his trial. I don't tell anyone this to scare you because so far, it's a happy ending. My rules were in place his whole life and while I don't claim to be 100% consistent, he always knoew the rules and knew he would be held accountable for breaking them. He still does. However he still chooses to test the limits and I truly believe, with him as my example, that sometimes you can do all the right things and your kids will do their own thing anyway. And the hardest thing about that is to let them and to follow through with what happens, i.e. police/courts if necessary. I work in law enforcement and I can't tell you how many kids like ours whose parents let them run wild, or did all the right things but when the police came wouldn't follow through. That sends as big a signal to a kid as any other. Just stand strong and do the hard stuff when you have to. My son was so mad at me when I turned him into his probation officer and he ended up going to the juvenile facility. But a month later, he was a new kid. And he didn't hate me so much after a week. He finally reliazed that he was going to be held accountable for his own actions, no matter what. We still have our issues, but he does not cross or test lines like he used to. He knows now that I will turn him in! That may sound harsh, but honestly the alternative for an out of control kid who grows into an out of control adult is much worse. Juvenile records go away. And of course, they always have to know how much you love them. When my son or daughter tell me I don't care I remind them that if I didn't care I would let them do whatever they want. If you made it down this far, thanks! Hope it helps.

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I agree what rebounder says. I have two boys, 9.5 and 11. The older is the worse and he argues over everything you can imagine, and he has an answer for everything. A new thing for him has been that he refuses to obey any request from me so he would never get into a chair!!! And, I agree that physically restraining them will lead to further aggression from the kid. So....I've learned to give him the cold treatement, per se, while taking away his priviliges for a specific amount of time. Priviliges are considered anything beyond eating meals and going to school. He gets the point and usually complies after yelling for about 10 minutes. We are always in some kind of discored here. I hate it. dee Quote:

rebounder said: Caution: If your child has severe behavior problems related to ADHD or ADHD/ODD time out can lead to your child becoming physically aggressive. What do you do when the child refuses to go to the chair or other time out area, or refuses to stay. Dr Phelan said to gently escort him to time out and ended the sentence and discussion there. Once you get physical with the child the resistance from them becomes physical. Once this becomes routine the next level of resistance is a struggle to get free of your grasp and control. This eventually becomes a wrestling match as someone will advise you that you can't let the child win . Next step in the progression of how to create a violent child is your attempts or successful effort to restrain him. Time out is usually not effective with kids whose behavioral symptoms are severe. They can go in and out of time out all day. The process is just another source of stimulation and their control over your behavior.They cause you to start the process knowing exactly what will occur. It seems not to be something that they want to avoid which is the purpose of it. It just might be the most excitement that they have had all day.Timeouts go on for years when you start around age four. If your child is not cooperating with you then you have not provided him with a reason to be when arguing and defiance are more fun. There is not an effective behavioral treatment that many know of for severe behavior problems. A good therapist should be able to teach you the practice of extinction and contingency management, the only two tools that you need to structure the home environment. It is not rocket science. You can create an environment that will manage the child's behavior for you and enable you to teach your child to behave in a civilized manner without gadgets like tokens, stars, charts, etc, and any type of physical intervention.such as time outs and physical rstraints. The process begins with your child rearing practices. Those that are typically practiced don't get the job done. Your ADHD child doesn't respond the way children typically do who don't have the disorder. Once you learn a method for making the inappropriate behavior useless for them as a means of obtaining things that they wanr they are receptive to trying it your away as a means of avoiding further causing themselves deprivation of the things that they want, and believe that they are entitled to. The practice of non-traditional parenting will free you from the cultural captivity that determines how you should raise your child, and employing the principles of Applied Behavioral Analysis (a branch of behavioral psychology ) will provide you the behavioral technology that will enable you to design a plan that teaches your child socially appropriate behavior. The child doesn't care. He goes with the flow. He wants to avoid deprivation. He wants access to all those good things that he is used to having. He behaves the way he does because he has , most likely inadvertently, been responding symptomatically to events in his environment, such as impulsively and drtiven to seek sources of stimulation that occur at higher levels than kids without the disorder, among other things. Typically as a parent you have tried reason and rational explanations for what you want from him. You have wasted your breath. Your child is learning experientially. When something occurs he judges the consequences for him to be good, bad or somewhere in between and thus may or may not want to engage in the behavior responsible for those consequences again. Parenting a child with ADHD requires that you provide consequences that steer his decision making in the direction that you want it to go. Lectures wont get the job done nor will positive parenting in terms of saying, "good job junior. " He wants to see the money. It may come as a shock to your 5, 6 or 7 year-old when he is told that he owns nothing. That everything in the house is yours and he can have access to it when you want to provide it. Yes, that includes Playstation, computers, tv and everything else other than the best care that you can give him and all the unconditional love from you that he can tolerate. There's plenty of time to tell him how proud of him that you are and how much that you love him when the home is not in a constant state of chaos. That's your responsibility as an adult parent and decision maker. The home is not a center for teaching democracy to children. It's a place where they are taught what it takes to be successful and experience the enjoyment of all that self esteem they acquire. But they have to show you the money. Nothing is free. You want things from him just as he wants things from you and you emphasize the fairness of any agreement that you might make. Once the child agrees to a rule as being fair there is nothing to argue about if it is violated. Nothing to discuss. Here is a rule that a parent of an ADHD child should establish at second grade, "Nothing occurs in this house until homework is completed to my satisfaction." The first day home from school in second grade straight to the diningroom table and start homework. It becomes a way of life that many parents who endured about 10 torturous years of homework problems wish they might have had going for them. Now there are those who will say, "A child needs a break from school work after doing it all day" Well that individual isn't aware of ADHD children and transition problems. Especilly transitions from something that they enjoy to something that they don't. All the electronic toys can be plugged into one outlet if defiantly turning them on when told not to occurs. Unbeknown to the child the power can be controlled at the fuse or breaker box. What kind of behavior is a child usually timed out for? If you are a non-traditional parenting parent you might just want to ignore it, or you might have agreed that when it occurs junior will have deprived himself of something that he would really like to have had because when it occurs you don't provide access to that item. You may not feel like taking him to soccer practice. Oh my God! Some helpful person will tell you, "ADHD kids need exercise or they go wild, and don't give them any sugar it makes them crazier than they already are. Rebounder

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I feel bad for your 12 year old daughter who is being bulllied. You do have recourses available to you. Bullying is now against the law in most states. Notify your school board of this. ADHD is a condition that must be dealth with by the school. They cannot 'refuse' to discuss it. She is entitlted to an IEP where you have rights to input whatever you feel is necessary. Complain to your school authories and tell them you will not permit these things to continue. Act on it once you say this. Good Luck, Dee

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mykidsmom: I feel for you...as I do for all of us. Some kids are just more difficult as every illness/disability affect everyone somewhat differently. Yes. I too would like it to all go away, and I've thought how nice it would be to be in a bed, getting waited on, quiet room, no yelling, no arguing, etc. Just watch TV, eat, drink, more TV, etc. Well, we can get out of that dream. I dont know what life holds for anyone. I do hope and pray that as our kids mature things will get better and our home life will eventually be whatever "normal" is supposed to be. Hang in there.......we don't have much choice now.

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The behaviors described are not typical of chilodren with uncomplicated ADHD. Professional advise is essential - especially for the younger kid, or there will be more problems later on.

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Although our son (8 yrs old) does not have extreme behavioral issues with his ADHD, we used to have fairly frequent "blow ups" - once or twice a month (not daily). We've found over time that this usually happens when he is: tired, over-excited, anticipating an "event" - even a school event that he is excited about can get him worked up, especially if he has to wait for it for several weeks - or our regular schedule is disturbed. We've found he needs a little more sleep than other kids his age and whenever we let him stay up late for a night or two, we usually pay the price with behaviour issues. We are extra careful around holidays or special events like family visiting, to keep his sleep schedule regular and make sure he's eating well - also we don't try to cram too many special things (movies, sleepover, party...etc.) into one weekend. We have seen a huge improvement - now we only have blow-ups about every 3 months or less!

I have kind of altered "Time-outs" for these blow ups when they do happen because time-out as a "punishment" really doesn't work for him. However, when he is really worked up and ranting and raving I have to get him settled down and in an environment where he can try to settle himself. I've found that he does need time alone although he doesn't like it, so I usually leave the door open or let him choose. I wait until he is well calmed down to even try to discuss whatever set him off. I usully suggest he get out our pet guinea pig or try to read a book or something. I try to talk to him about learning to settle himself down - then later we discuss the issue and often end up agreeing to disagree, but I do at least try to get him to see that his behaviour was out of proportion to the "cause".

Our son does also tend to be argumentive, and like others we just try put a quick stop to it, if we feel he is just arguing to argue we just tell him not to argue with us and that he doesn't get a choice in everything... he's gotten better about it.

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I read the notes here about forcing kids into time out, etc. and think that they don't take into account the issues that kids with ADHD have to face. I'm pretty much out the other end of child rearing and thought I would share the three critical (and very SIMPLE) ideas that helped us as a family with ADD:

FIRST: Stick to this very simple rule: Tantrums don't work. Every time your child comes to you in whiny fashion, or throwing a tantrum, calmly say "Tantrums don't work. When you are finished with your tantrum please come back and find me because I'll be very interested in what you have to say." Be very consistent with this and you will soon find that your kids learn that "talking" with mom or dad is much more productive than throwing a tantrum. It also reinforces a skill that many kids with ADD need to learn - self control, but in a very ADD-humane way. You aren't requiring that the kids sit still in a chair (torture for a kids with ADHD) nor are you punishing them. You are simply refusing to engage with a person who is throwing a tantrum.

SECOND: Respect your child's opinion (unless it is given during a tantrum, in which case see #1!) By listening to what they have to say and asking questions to deepen the conversation you do the following: illustrate how much you love them; show them that their opinion counts; teach them communication and social skills; make your home a "safe" place for them, no matter what happens at school and outside the home.

THIRD: Create a reasonable, and very consistent schedule around critical tasks the child needs to perform or can enjoy. These include sleep (very, very important), homework, family dinners (the number one predictors of success in school according to research) and naps. To this we also added reading time every night before bed (alternating who picked out the story). The kids knew they could look forward to this time to cuddle and read (and didn't really give it up until their early teens). All kids thrive when there is an element of predictability in their lives, but kids with ADD are particularly in need of the organization and predictability of a good, healthy schedule.

That's it. Keep these things in mind and I predict you'll find that your family life actually goes pretty smoothly!

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I agree that we should not tolerate or negotiate with a child throwing a tantrum. However, we found the "time-out chair" to be the only way to calm our 6 year old son down. Our son becomes very violent and extremely aggressive both physically and verbally and in the beggining had to sometimes be 2 adults to restrain him and avoid him either injuring us or even him. We have been using this technique for almost 2 years now and he now knows that if he does not calm down, we add more time on the time out chair. As a matter of fact, we start counting only once the aggressive behavior has stopped. It was hell in the beggining but the tantrums and aggressivity have now decreased in frequency and intensity. Our son now understand that this chair is the place to calm down. THat the time-out is a non-negotiable time that can only be lenghtened in time. It may seem a bit harsh for those parents that have kids with mild AD/DH but we have see some progress for our son (severe AD/DH and oppositional defiant disorder). By the way, the "time-out Chair" applies for all kids in the family, AD/HD or not (funny note: my son saw our "time out chair" at IKEA and said :" oh my god they have the time-out chairs for other kids too?"

I thought I could share a few tips with other parent sout there who are completely discouraged out there: 1. Get help! Managing an AD/HD child is completely draining. THe more tired you are, the less successful you will be in being consistent with the discipline. Look for ressources in the community: child psycholgists, psychoeducators, social workers, children's hospital etc. We have been through many teams and finally found the good one with a psychoeducator that our son loves. THrough them, we were offered respite weekends which were truly a blessing. 2. Accepting that you need help has nothing to do with your parenting skills. As a matter a fact, it is the opposite, you are actively looking for solutions to help your child and your family. 3. Be consistent: the rules and consequences should be the same all the time 4. Follow-through: if you said that you would add 10 minutes on the timeout chair, do it! If you said that there would be no computer game that night, make sure it happens. Never watching TV ever again is not a good one... 5. AD/HD need to be reminded of the rules constantly. Make a simple list, with pictograms if your child is too young to read, print and plastify. Our list has been on the kitchen wall for the last year. 6. Keep track of the good behaviors and reward. My husband had the fantastic idea to paint an entire kitchen wall with chalkboard paint. THis wall has been the nervous system of our house for the last year. Every day of the week has a box. Each day is broken down in 3 parts (mornings, school, and evening). If rules are respected and the behavior is respected, they get a happy face. For us, 3 happy faces in the week yields a reward (chosing the movie, going to the park, chosing the cereal for the week etc. Small things. But make sure that you explain the rules to your kids. We usually have a family meeting when we try new things. 7. Do not expect your child to have perfect weeks. Do not forget that this is not easy for your child to do. So encourage your child for the good days and acknowledge the efforts 8. You are not perfect either and should not strive to be either. You will at times completely lose it. You are not a bad parent because of that. But recognize that you have lost your temper in front of your child. Sometimes, I need the time out more then they do...

Our son is now 6 years old, in school, doing well academically, not so well behavior wise but there has been a lot of progress in the last 2 years. Medication has helped and we are still fine tuning the combination that would work best for him. My son's teacher has been wonderful, she thought of teaching yoga to ALL the kids in the class when they come back from recess. Apparently, it has helped him quite a bit at school. So hang in there and be creative. You are not alone!

A positive mom.

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We are just in the beginning stages of having our 4.5 yr old son diagnosed (adhd). He was always labeled as "over active" and just a "normal" boy. But these were comments coming from people, mainly family members, that did not understand the hardships that we went through with him since he was A BABY.

Anyways, this thread really opened up my eyes and gave me some serious comfort that my son is not alone in his behavior and that my husband and myself are not alone.

We have our first dr's appointment March 11th. After trying everything else, we need to have other options.

Anyways, thanks for all of the great information. We are going to get informed and try many of the things that were suggest here...

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We have an 8 year old boy, who was having problems in school. We went to the Family Advocate Program, here in Boise and started visiting with a parent educator, who invited us to attend a Love and Logic class (www.loveandlogic.com). It was the best thing we have done for our family. We quickly began spending all of our drive time with Jim Fay immersed in the concepts that Love and Logic teach. When I began to wonder if this could really work for kids like mine, I listened to "Calming the Chaos". What an amazing audio cd! Not only did in reinforce the need to nuetralize arguements, it taught me that "anger and frustration lead to misbehavior" and that kids like mine learn best in 4 situations. 1 - New and interesting. 2 - Scary and intimidating, 3 - One on One, 4 - Highly stimulating. I keep stickies all over my house and car with things like "no anger, lectures, threats or warnings" or "brain dead" or just "Uh Oh". Take a minute to go to their website and click on articles. It truly helped us.

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